Richard Bartle Transcript
From NMC-Campus
Lecture by Richard Bartle for University of Washingto students, October 17, 2006, on NMC Campus
[13:40] Mercedes Wind: ok, I think we are ready to go. I would like everyone to take a seat
[13:40] Mercedes Wind: I'd like to introduce our speaker, Richard Bartle.
[13:41] Mercedes Wind: The format will be question and answer
[13:42] Mercedes Wind: So Richard will discuss his background and then each of you can ask him questions.
[13:43] Professor Something: cough cough
[13:43] Professor Something: ok, I'm here at the generous invitation of your eminent professor here
[13:43] Yelper Tuck: amen!
[13:44] Professor Something: who will appear even more eminent after you see what the poor folks in England have as comparison
[13:44] Peace Link: Hello
[13:44] Professor Something: the reason I'm here is basically because I haven't died yet
[13:45] Professor Something: I co-wrote what many people regard as the first virtual world, MUD
[13:45] Professor Something: way back in 1978
[13:45] Professor Something: I've been interested in the field ever since
[13:45] Professor Something: and I'm here to answer your questions before senility strikes
[13:46] Professor Something: oh, I just enlarged my chat menu to cover my entire screen so no need to use any of those expensive gesture macros you bought
[13:47] Professor Something: I guess I'd better let you ask questions before I dig myself into a deeper hole
[13:48] Professor Something: nowwww I'm beginning to wonder if anyone can actually see what I'm typing here...
[13:48] Yelper Tuck: what is your favorite MMO?
[13:49] Mercedes Wind: ok why don't each one of you starting in the back row ask a question.
[13:49] Professor Something: a question: what's my favourite MMO
[13:49] Professor Something: ok, well is that from the point of view of a player or as a designer?
[13:49] Professor Something: hmm, actually there isn;t a point of view as a player, because I AM a designer
[13:50] Snidely Longstaff: both?
[13:50] Professor Something: I don't actually get to enjoy games as a player because I see the design too much
[13:50] Professor Something: and I don;t enjoy the non-games (like SL) because there's nothing to do in them
[13:51] Aeriq Link: /launch
[13:51] Monad Link: Professor, where do you see these technologies evolving in the next decade?
[13:51] Monad Link: MM virtual communities
[13:51] Aeriq Link: Get lost!
[13:51] Professor Something: technologies in the next decade
[13:52] Professor Something: ok, well I can see money being spent improving what people believe is important, eg. graphics and bandwidth
[13:52] Professor Something: and sure, those will help with the newbie experience and, to some degree, immersion
[13:52] Professor Something: but it's content and authorship where the really interesting stuff lies
[13:53] Serj Shemesh: I recently heard that IBM, Sun Micro, and Intell, joined the SL culture
[13:53] Professor Something: SL here is pretty well put together, nicely engineered and so on, but jeeeeez it's a crock when it comes to the interface
[13:53] Olin Go: As a designer how important do you consider non-game elements such as those present in Second Life in MMO's?
[13:53] Serj Shemesh: Do you see a lot of potential in SL?
[13:53] Misery Vale: is there a gesture to raise hand?
[13:53] Professor Something: SL is today's LamdaMOO - it's a virtual world but not a game, so researchers don't fear being branded losers for playing it
[13:54] Serj Shemesh: afk
[13:54] No room to sit here, try another spot.
[13:54] Professor Something: some of SL's non-game elements ought to be in the game virtual worlds too
[13:55] Professor Something: I don't see SL becoming THE place for people to interact virtually in future though, it's just too monolithic
[13:55] Professor Something: it's like in the olde days when people were worried that AOL would take over the Internet
[13:55] Soraya Yutani: In your book you seem to prefer text-based virtual worlds to graphical ones. Do you ever see graphical worlds achieving the same amount of customization available in textual worlds?
[13:55] Crito Lunardi: do you think if the interface was streamlined, it could become THE place to interact?
[13:55] Professor Something: eventually, we'll all be able to create our own virtual worlds and run them on our own hardware as we can now our web sites
[13:56] Professor Something: I don't see graphical worlds getting the same amount of customisation as in textual worlds
[13:56] Professor Something: not unless they cheat and put text into the graphics
[13:56] Professor Something: which is kind of an admission of defeat
[13:56] Professor Something: I don't dislike graphical worlds, I just prefer the picturesin textual ones
[13:57] Danny Longstaff: Are you currently working on any new games?
[13:57] Christopher Boivin: I remember back in the mid 90s when something similar to the whole SL concept was attempted by BT and a few other orgs... it never really flew, but why is SL continuing to prove popular with more than just techies or geeks in your opinion?
[13:57] Sabedoria Zohari: As far as game design goes, what are some key aspects that differentiate a really good game from an ok one?
[13:58] Professor Something: no, I'm a professor, I don't get to work on games ... I do get to consult for other people who work on them though
[13:58] Flames Virtanen: hey ernie dickins, get off the penguin!
[13:58] Professor Something: the SL concept has been tried before in both fiction and reality
[13:58] Professor Something: this particular group was right place, right time, right people, right idealism
[13:58] Serj Shemesh: for example?
[13:59] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: [SETUP] : Initializing....
[13:59] Professor Something: I like the Linden Labs crew, they're very forward-thinking
[13:59] Professor Something: however, SL will never become the Snow Crash metaverse
[13:59] Professor Something: not even - well, especially not - if MicroSoft were to get involved
[14:00] Professor Something: it would just stifle creativity too much
[14:00] Monad Link: What would it need to change do you think to reach that sort of goal?
[14:00] Professor Something: if they released the server code and let you build your own worlds, maybe...
[14:00] Serj Shemesh: Do you think MS will do something like SL?
[14:00] Yelper Tuck: /wink
[14:00] Professor Something: MS could do something like SL, but their other ventures into virtual worlds haven't been wonderful
[14:01] Professor Something: Asheron's Call was MS-funded
[14:01] Iddav Zona: Professor, so what gave you the idea for creating the first MUD? And how long did it take to catch on?
[14:01] Serj Shemesh: Yeah, that was kind of a failure
[14:01] Professor Something: I'd guess that the way they'd do it would be to buy some failing or obscure virtual world developer and MSise their software
[14:01] Misery Vale: also, what was the theme of the world's first MUD?
[14:01] Professor Something: as for WHY they'd do it, well, "it could be important some day" is good enough for them
[14:02] Professor Something: theme of the firts MUD: a fantasy world, drawn from various periods of British/European history
[14:02] Professor Something: the way I did it, I had time as a metaphor for danger, so the further back in time something came from then the more dangerous it was likely to be
[14:03] BobbyIsANinjNamed Kondo: so what's up?
[14:03] Professor Something: thus if you came across something really ancient, like prehistoric standing stones, you knew you were in for a torrid time
[14:03] Sade Kearby: Where did you get the idea for the first MUD?
[14:03] Professor Something: that's if you had time to notice before the dragon ate you
[14:03] Danny Longstaff: flee N!
[14:04] Yelper Tuck: /lauch
[14:04] Professor Something: ha, I just wrote a lecture I'm giving my own students tomorrow where I say "people often ask me where I got the idea for MUD"...
[14:04] Professor Something: as a designer, my current favourite is EVE Online, it's very well engineered and is true to its philosophy
[14:04] Professor Something: the thing is, designers get ideas the whole time
[14:05] Professor Something: it's the most world-like of torday's virtual worlds, and I like that too
[14:05] Professor Something: it's not so much "where did you get the idea" as "why did you run with that idea rather than all the others you have"?
[14:05] Professor Something: I drew from some earlier games I'd written for some of the concepts, and some novels and things for others
[14:06] Professor Something: but most of it I just put in because I had the idea there and then and decided it was a good one
[14:06] Professor Something: also, I should remind people that it wasn't just me, it was Roy Trubshaw as well
[14:06] Professor Something: as for how long it took to catch on
[14:06] Professor Something: it was an immediate hit in the computer science department at Essex University
[14:07] Sydney Montgolfier: what is the next idea you want to explore?
[14:07] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: [SETUP] : Initializing....
[14:07] Professor Something: and it rapidly became a hit in other departments too
[14:07] Sabedoria Zohari: Do you think game designers face any ethical concerns when designing games or online worlds?
[14:07] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: [READY] : Published by Rhiannon Chatnoir.
[14:07] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: [READY] : 10 pages.
[14:07] Professor Something: after a year or so we had players over what would later become the Internet
[14:07] Professor Something: some in the USA, one in Japan
[14:07] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: First page.
[14:07] Professor Something: then in about 1983 we started getting dial-up users
[14:08] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: First page.
[14:08] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: First page.
[14:08] GK's DMEC- Digital Revolution whispers: First page.
[14:08] Professor Something: next idea I want to explore: I have lots, although the one I was thinking about today is "what is a game"
[14:09] Professor Something: I'll probably blog that when I'm done
[14:09] Professor Something: ethical concerns: yes, designers do face them
[14:09] Professor Something: the more intelligent designers even know they face them and consider what to do about it
[14:10] Professor Something: examples include things like deliberate addiction, sexism, racism, religion
[14:10] Professor Something: basically, a designer is an artist and everything in their design is something they've said to their players
[14:10] Professor Something: so if they say something they feel uncomfortable with, they're opening a dialogue
[14:11] Professor Something: not that the players appreciate this, but other designers can pick up on it
[14:11] Seattle Citylights: Why do you think there is so much interest in MMO's and virtual worlds in the face of so many other entertainment options?
[14:12] Professor Something: there's more interest becauise virtual worlds give you something you can't get anywhere else
[14:12] Professor Something: they give you freedom to become and to be yourself
[14:12] Soraya Yutani: A lot of people do become unhealthily addicted to MMOs. Do you think it's mostly due to the player's personality that they become addicted or is there something inherent in the design that causes addiction?
[14:12] Professor Something: if you wanted to do that in the past, you had to go on a grand tour of Europe for 2 years with your poet friends
[14:12] Professor Something: or trek out to antarctica looking for the south pole
[14:13] Professor Something: or join the army and get shot at
[14:13] Professor Something: these aren't options open to most people
[14:13] Professor Something: with a virtual world, these options are at last available
[14:13] Professor Something: you have the freedom to explore your sense of self
[14:13] Professor Something: you just can't do that anywhere else
[14:14] Serj Shemesh: Do you think there will be a time that almost everyone will participle in a virtual world?
[14:14] Professor Something: half the world doesn't have access to a telephone. it'll be a while before "almost everyone" will participate in virtual worlds
[14:15] Professor Something: if you mean in advanced societies, over 54% of South Koreans already participate in virtual worlds
[14:15] Christopher Boivin: how long away do you think it'll be before people get teased and bullied for NOT spending the majority of their free time in virtual worlds such as this one?
[14:16] Professor Something: er that was over 50% - 54% was the figure I read earlier today but I don't know what the error margin is
[14:16] Professor Something: to be teased and bullie dyou have to share a space with them
[14:16] Professor Something: if you're in a virtual world and they're not, how are you going to tease them?
[14:17] Professor Something: I can see what you mean, though ... this sort of thing does happen in Korea
[14:17] Sydney Montgolfier: Do you envision a time when Virtual Worlds are more broadly used for Social Good/Social Change?
[14:17] Christopher Boivin: what i mean is, you go to school, you see your friends, and they nag you and tease you because you aren't joining in - you're the odd one out because everyone else is doing it... how far away do you think that kind of situation is?
[14:17] Professor Something: there's a term for it ... er ... wang-tta
[14:17] Professor Something: virtual worlds and children are a different thing to virtual worlds in general
[14:17] Professor Something: what I say about virtual worlds as places to be free and so on is all modulo their being played by adults
[14:18] Christopher Boivin: i get ribbed by my friends slightly because i occasionally dip into SL, just for fun... i don't spend money on it or a great deal of time; but i still get made fun of a bit. how long you think it'd take for this situation to reverse, is what i meant
[14:18] Professor Something: when children enter the equation, it's completely different
[14:18] Professor Something: how long do I think it'll be before the social norm is to play a virtual world?
[14:18] Serj Shemesh: put pants on
[14:18] Christopher Boivin: exactly
[14:19] Professor Something: I don't expect that if it becomes the norm it'll remain so for long
[14:19] Professor Something: fashions change
[14:19] Professor Something: I do expect people will play virtual worlds a lot, and it won;t come to be regarded as in any way weird
[14:19] Misery Vale: but that would be like saying the internet is a "fashion"
[14:19] Professor Something: and it may be that if you don't play then people will look at you askance as they might today if you said you didn't watch TV
[14:20] Flames Virtanen: Yeah, I think we're saying that virtual worlds are being established as a medium
[14:20] Professor Something: but if people do spend a lot of time in virtual worlds, for year after year, then there'll have to be worlds within worlds
[14:21] Professor Something: because what happens when you play them for a long time is that they lose their magic
[14:21] Flames Virtanen: and the fashions will be between one world or another
[14:21] Professor Something: and become just another part of reality
[14:21] Sabedoria Zohari: When you play games, like Wow (if you do), are you constatntly critiquing the game and thinking, I would have done this differently, or are you able to becom immersed in it?
[14:21] Professor Something: and frankly, reality does reality better
[14:21] Christopher Boivin: interesting... thinking also about our online personae; i (amongst others) gravitate towards imitating my real-life appearance in-world, but some go wild and make fantastic creations... how come the population is so greatly divided on something so basic?
[14:21] Professor Something: when you play a virtual world, your aim is to find out who you are
[14:22] Professor Something: now you can do this either by starting with how you see yourself at the moment and then perturbing that view
[14:22] Professor Something: it's just the difference between interpolation and extrapolation
[14:22] Professor Something: the wow question
[14:23] Professor Something: or you can start with something you know you're not and then work towards what you are
[14:23] Professor Something: yes I do play (I have a 60 pally, a 60 mage, a53 warlock and a 46 rogue)
[14:23] Professor Something: and it's quite painful for me to play
[14:24] Professor Something: I only really needed to play up to level 6, maybe 10
[14:24] Lo Lowe: Why go all the way with so many characters?
[14:24] Yelper Tuck: thank you, half the class will brb :)
[14:24] Professor Something: I play it because WoW is so ubiquitous that I need the credentials of playing it in order that people don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about
[14:25] Professor Something: because that's enough for me to be able to fill in all the design blanks I need in order to appreciate it
[14:25] Professor Something: if I claim to be a virtual world researcher and people ask me whether I've played this world or that world, what do I say
[14:25] Lo Lowe: "I have a level 60 Pally"
[14:25] Professor Something: I say no, I don't, I read the forums and look at the design and maybe watch someone else play and perhaps play for a few hours myself
[14:25] Professor Something: and that's all I need
[14:26] Nolligan Nino: well you've only got the default avi for sl
[14:26] Nolligan Nino: unless u have an alt
[14:26] Nolligan Nino: so how ell do you know sl?
[14:26] Professor Something: but then I get challenged that I don't have my finger on the pulse, that I'm living in an ivory tower
[14:26] Professor Something: and when I speak to my own students and they ask me what my favourite area is in WoW, I'd better be able to answer
[14:26] Nolligan Nino: *well
[14:27] You shout: what do you see as the biggest barrier to more advanced/involved game immersion?
[14:27] Professor Something: so, I play WoW to get the credentials, so if someone says to me "come back and tell me that when you're level 60", I can invoke profanities in my reply
[14:27] Misery Vale: so you get no enjoyment out of playing WoW at all?
[14:28] Sydney Montgolfier: Announcement: Class is now rejoining downstairs....
[14:28] Professor Something: only a handful of designers know how it is ... most players don't realise that designing and playing are different
[14:28] Akibono Nohkan: you just cant get to that kinda level without enjoyment
[14:28] Misery Vale: or precisely
[14:28] Professor Something: well there are some nice features in the class balance that I like to explore, it really does that very well, but it's basically just sitting down and running through what I know is going to happen anyway
[14:29] Misery Vale: percisely
[14:29] Crito Lunardi: so is WoW more like a second job to you than actually a game?
[14:29] Professor Something: no, you can get to that level without enjoyment - I've played my OWN games for longer than I've played WoW, and that's even worse
[14:30] Professor Something: the enjoyment I get is from design nuances, although at this stage I'm now finding some things too irritating even there, I want to change them
[14:30] Professor Something: I'm not criticising WoW's deisgn here, it's very well done
[14:30] Snidely Longstaff: but not much beyond that
[14:30] Snidely Longstaff: Professor, what are some methods of introducing the necessity for player-based skill without relying on game mechanics, for example, Tetris really relies on the player to think and react, WoW requires the priest to press 5 to heal the fighers
[14:31] Professor Something: if you want to look at ideas for player-based skill, check out A Tale in the Desert
[14:31] Professor Something: which has some fairly harsh grinding but some very nice skill-based crafting
[14:32] Professor Something: you might also look at Puzzle Pirates, which uses games of skill to handle inter-group interaction
[14:32] Lo Lowe: What is the first thing you would change about WoW?
[14:32] Professor Something: the first thing I'd change about WoW is to put my name at the end ... not because I have any right to its being there but because I'd like a share of its royalties
[14:32] Professor Something: the second change I'd make is to add an option to quit honourably at level 60
[14:33] Flames Virtanen: What's the difference between gamers in UK and US?
[14:33] Akibono Nohkan: we own them at fps..
[14:33] Snidely Longstaff: haha
[14:34] Christopher Boivin: uk > us typls
[14:34] Lo Lowe: How would that work? (the honorable exit)
[14:34] Professor Something: wellthe main difference is that UK gamers know how to spell words like "favourite" and "honour" and "sceptre" and "theatre"...
[14:34] Akibono Nohkan: and armor?
[14:34] Snidely Longstaff: i'm sorry, my MS Word doesn't recognize those as words
[14:34] Misery Vale: color?
[14:34] Professor Something: there are some cultural differences, of course, that carry over into the games
[14:35] Christopher Boivin: i think what draws me back into rl is that there's no vendor who sells a nice cuppa tea in SL
[14:35] Professor Something: american players are happy to talk about religion and the war on terror and stuff, which UK players would be wary of
[14:36] Crito Lunardi: that seems to apply to different countries as well. Gamers in Asia must enjoy different games then over here. Does that come into the design process?
[14:36] Professor Something: it does come into it yes, as a designe ryou really have to know your target demographics
[14:36] Professor Something: WoW launched a European server for Italy and Greece
[14:36] Professor Something: it was a disaster
[14:36] Professor Something: the Italians and Greeks did NOT get along
[14:37] Professor Something: they split along racial lines (although they didn;t gravitate one to horde one to alliance)
[14:37] Misery Vale: so one picks horde and the other picks alliance...
[14:37] Mercedes Wind: Would it be possible to get a copy of the paper you presented to your class ;-)?
[14:37] Professor Something: and they guilds got very acrimonious ... that server is pretty well dead now
[14:37] Flames Virtanen: does every country need its own server then?
[14:38] Professor Something: it was just one of the 20 lectures I have to give them over the course of the year, Mercedes. you really DON'T want to read it all
[14:39] Professor Something: I play on US servers, for example, and there are Aussies and Canadians there too
[14:39] Akibono Nohkan: wouldnt that defeat the point of mmo since its supposed to be sharing culture over other people
[14:39] Professor Something: not every country needs its own server - some get along quite nicely
[14:39] Professor Something: we don't go for each other's throats or anything
[14:39] Professor Something: MMOs aren't about sharing culture!
[14:39] Akibono Nohkan: like social aspects
[14:39] Professor Something: MMOs are about imposing the vision of the designer on the players
[14:39] Akibono Nohkan: you get some kind of cultural share
[14:39] Professor Something: and that vision is informed by the designer's culture
[14:39] Akibono Nohkan: at least I do
[14:40] Professor Something: some designers create worlds to allow cultural expression
[14:40] Professor Something: but the decision to allow that is itself a cultural expression
[14:41] Professor Something: I look forward to the day when the BBC do a virtual world as a way of propagating British values to its players
[14:41] Flames Virtanen: Do you see any potential in console MMO's as oppose to PC?
[14:41] Professor Something: I know that there are talks in US government circles about doing that for the USA
[14:41] Professor Something: if a console has a keyboard, yes
[14:42] Flames Virtanen: what about headphones?
[14:42] Professor Something: if not, well it would need something as expressive or the world would be a little, er, flat
[14:42] Flames Virtanen: Isn't that better than keyboard?
[14:42] You: isn't there really a need for some input device more natural and advanced than keys, buttons, and wheels?
[14:43] Professor Something: microphone and headphones are somewhat illusion-shattering
[14:43] You: maybe something like where the wii is heading?
[14:43] Professor Something: OK, if I play a female dwarf then I can put on the fake Scottish accent, but the 2-octaves-too-high voice would stump me
[14:43] Fau Ferdinand: I'd go for voice through effects
[14:43] Professor Something: a nicer interface would be good, yes
[14:43] Flames Virtanen: illusion-shattering in that we can't be someone we're not? Depends if you consider that the point of it
[14:44] Professor Something: I'd go for voice broken down into phonemes and then reconstituted using a prepared voice
[14:44] Professor Something: that would allow me to sound like some kind of spooky truck driver when I'm playing a night elf
[14:44] Christopher Boivin: ... and stuff, my i am articulate tonight
[14:44] Professor Something: (see how I can slip WoW references in seamlessly because I play it?)
[14:44] Christopher Boivin: how come we haven't seen a resurgence in the popularity of interactive human interface devices (stuff like the vr glove and stuff) seeming that the popularity of VR is increasing so much? it seems a bit odd to me; a passed up opportunity
[14:45] Professor Something: VR is just an interface thing, it's just something you use to help get where you're going
[14:45] Professor Something: it's what you do when you get there that's important
[14:45] Professor Something: people can get there using text, it's not all that hard
[14:45] You: isn't it important to be able to get there in an immersive way?
[14:45] You: or perhaps not important, but at least beneficial
[14:45] Professor Something: adding gimmicks and trying to make them standard is just putting more cost in than you need
[14:46] Lo Lowe: What do you think about virtual worlds that reflect reality?
[14:46] Professor Something: ok, what's immersion?
[14:46] Christopher Boivin: has anyone ever run a VR world, something along the lines of this or similar, and just left it to its own devices to see how its society would react? lord of the flies style
[14:46] Professor Something: immersion is the sense that YOU are IN the virtual world
[14:46] Flames Virtanen: Would you say that you were inspired to work on muds mostly to facilitate becoming someone else?
[14:46] Fau Ferdinand: I'll tell you what's immersion , falling asleep on your keyboard
[14:47] Professor Something: some virtualworlds have gone that lord of the flies way ... indeed quite a few do before they keel over and die
[14:47] Fau Ferdinand: that's immersion
[14:47] Professor Something: falling asleep at your keyboard isn't immersion, it's tiredness
[14:47] iaid Chaika: New question: Have you heard of The ENdless Forest?
[14:47] You: don't keys and mice (as an artifical, less natural way of interacting) limit immersion?
[14:48] Fau Ferdinand: heh you'd be surprised
[14:48] Professor Something: players WANT to be immersed. keys and mice only act as barriers for newbies
[14:48] Professor Something: even graphics is only really necessary for newbies
[14:48] Nolligan Nino: what about dreaming about a virtual world when you are asleep is that immersion?
[14:48] Snidely Longstaff: real pros use neural interaction
[14:48] Fau Ferdinand: :)
[14:48] Professor Something: dreaming about a virtual world while asleep isn't immersion
[14:48] iaid Chaika: Endles Forest?It's an MMO
[14:48] Snidely Longstaff: i do understand what you mean tho, eventually the whole notion of using a kb/mouse goes out the window
[14:48] Crito Lunardi: but wouldn't you want to ease the transition for new players, so they can be ensarned as well and spend plenty of money on games?
[14:49] Professor Something: immersion would be when you were in a virtual world and you daydreamed and then you snapped out of the daydream and you were still in the virtual world
[14:49] iaid Chaika: ABout interfaces, I really like True Names' approach
[14:49] Professor Something: without ever having touched reality - that would be immersion
[14:49] Nolligan Nino: ok - good answer thanx
[14:49] Professor Something: I recognise the name Endless Forest, don't recall offhand where from though
[14:49] Swift Batz: How would you compare immersion from reading a book to playing a game?
[14:49] You: the approach of output yes, but notice how neither true names nor snow crash mentions the manner of input except very briefly in passing
[14:49] Professor Something: eventually you don't notice you're using a keyboard any more than you notice you're using a steering wheel while driving
[14:50] Fau Ferdinand: it's text less vr where everyone's a deer
[14:50] Professor Something: as far as you're concerned when you;r ein a car, if another car hits yours "hey, that guy ran into me"
[14:50] You: perhaps not, but isn't there a sort of reaction barrier? or a limitation on the actions the designers can allow you to take?
[14:50] Professor Something: not "key that guy's car ran into my car"
[14:50] iaid Chaika: ACtualy, there's quite a bit. About it's similarities with daydreaming. My goal is to do that with sound instead of EEG
[14:50] Professor Something: that's not immersion, that's just a stepto immersion - believing a mediated experience is not mediated
[14:51] Professor Something: there are limits to what a designer can give you becaise of the interface
[14:51] Larry Pixel: No you can sit in on it
[14:51] Professor Something: but then there are limits caused by reality
[14:51] Professor Something: I can fly in SL, I can't in reality
[14:51] Flames Virtanen: I think that kind of step to immersion is what we want, because we aren't true gamers
[14:52] Professor Something: if you wire me up to some kind of machine that tricks my senses into believing I'm in SL, I still won't be able to fly
[14:52] Professor Something: I couldn't be a fish or a bird or an 8-legged thorg from planet Zarkon if the interface assumed I was human
[14:52] Professor Something: the only way to get to do that stuff is if you sidestep the body altogether and talk directly to the mind
[14:53] Professor Something: which is what text does, and is why I like it
[14:53] iaid Chaika: What do you think abut using sound, or specifically musi, for that?
[14:53] Flames Virtanen: if you could do that stuff with rocket packs and robotic costumes, would that appeal to you?
[14:53] Monad Link: So read books.
[14:53] Professor Something: music is a good way of generating atmosphere, although not the only one obviously
[14:54] Professor Something: why would I read a book? I don't get to be a character in a book
[14:54] Professor Something: (I do read books, but not for the same reason I play virtual worlds)
[14:54] iaid Chaika: I know TRUe Names compared it to reading, but I think it would be interesting to pack information into music as well as atmosphere
[14:55] Professor Something: rocket packs and suspensions in vats of liquid to simulate gravity and all that stuff is just talking to the senses
[14:55] Professor Something: you need to talk to the imagination if you;re to get to someone's soul
[14:55] Professor Something: now you CAN do that in images, but it's very hard
[14:55] Professor Something: it;s far easier in text, because (as I said earlier) the pictures are better - they're exactly what you need when you need them
[14:56] Professor Something: you can pack information into music but people have to be able to read it
[14:56] iaid Chaika: you can learrn
[14:56] Professor Something: and as soon as you start creating a vocabulary for music you start to lose accessibility
[14:57] Professor Something: people can always learn, yes, but that doesn't mean you need to make it hard for them
[14:57] Fau Ferdinand: you take a few years to learn to understand speech
[14:57] Fau Ferdinand: another year or so to learn to write
[14:57] iaid Chaika: but if you keep it intuitive you can keep the learning curve easier, like physics-based gaes
[14:57] Professor Something: yes but you only have like 70 to spend altogether
[14:58] Professor Something: yes, intuitive interfaces and physics are good
[14:58] Monad Link: Are you excited about the upcoming expansion to WoW?
[14:58] Flames Virtanen: do you like the many internet typing abreviations and smileys as a form of text expression?
[14:58] Crito Lunardi: I feel like people prefer a graphical representation to their imaginations. Why else do people prefer movies to books? They want it to be easy for them
[14:58] Flames Virtanen: such as lol and :-)
[14:58] Professor Something: if you present players with something they already understand at a subconscious level then they won;t jar against it
[14:58] Fau Ferdinand: I don't prefer movies to books
[14:58] Professor Something: which makes it easier for them to will themselves into immersion
[14:59] Fau Ferdinand: but I prefer sl to a mud
[14:59] Professor Something: I dread the upcoming WoW expansion
[14:59] Professor Something: I don;t mind other people using smileys but I never do
[14:59] Flames Virtanen: i agree though, the clunkiness of sl is annoying... if it just didn't try to be real, that might be better
[14:59] Professor Something: some peopel do prefer to see otherpeople's images to those of their own mind's eye, yes
[15:00] Fau Ferdinand: it's not that at all
[15:00] Professor Something: SL's heart is in the right place
[15:01] iaid Chaika: yeah, that's what I mean about music - start with intuitive subconscous emotinal music iformation, then let eople slowly learn te specifics like Tru Names
[15:01] Fau Ferdinand: you won't get sl till you start building professor
[15:01] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[15:01] Flames Virtanen: do you think mud's will ever have a resurgence? If others come to appreciate text like you do?
[15:01] Mercedes Wind: Ok, I think we should start wrapping things up. So Richard can stop typing for a bit.
[15:01] Professor Something: was that remark about building in SL supposed to be ironic?
[15:01] Fau Ferdinand: nope
[15:01] Professor Something: MUDs won't have a resurgence, no
[15:02] Professor Something: textual ones, that is ... they won't go away though
[15:02] Fau Ferdinand: I'm a visual artist
[15:02] Mercedes Wind: Let's say five more minutes.
[15:02] Professor Something: ok, well firstly I don't have to build in SL because I've built entire worlds before
[15:03] Professor Something: secondly, your saying I have to build in SL is like the WoW people saying I need to be level 60 - no I DON'T have to build in SL
[15:03] Flames Virtanen: do you think games like WoW should have more of a personal expression / building aspect like SL does?
[15:03] Snow Ball Shooter: Snow ball fight!
[15:03] Fau Ferdinand: ok then
[15:03] Professor Something: I'm a designer, not a user, not a player
[15:03] Monad Link: Thank you professor bartle.
[15:03] Swift Batz: Thank you very much
[15:03] Snidely Longstaff: Thanks for your time Professor
[15:03] Crito Lunardi: thank you kindly
[15:04] Sade Kearby: Thank you for your time
[15:04] Lo Lowe: Thanks for the talk.
[15:04] Flames Virtanen: Thanks so much for your insight
[15:04] You: thanks for your time
[15:04] Hedwig Rickenbacker: Muchas Gracias
[15:04] Misery Vale: thanks
[15:04] Professor Something: that thing about music - it's interesting but I don;'t think it has the precision of epxression for abstract concepts
[15:04] Arahold Gray: Thanks
[15:04] Professor Something: you might be able to get emotions over that way though, but you do risk losing accessibility in a big way
[15:05] Mercedes Wind: Ok, I think we are done. Thank you for you so much for your time. If you have time we can continue sometime in WoW :-)
